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welcome to Sputnik orbiting the world

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with me George Galloway and me kri it

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must have been hard to tell the

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difference between the screeching of the

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tires and the screaming of the torture

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victims the backfiring of the Ferraris

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and Mercedes souped up racing cars and

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the volleys of shots being fired at the

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people whose country was being burned up

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by the hot shots of Formula 1 there was

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blood on the tracks but no one in the

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industry or the media which advertises

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it so well spoke about it the truth

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about Bahrain is this a tiny corrupt and

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absolute monarchy dictatorship is

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massacring and torturing the Democracy

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protesters who represent the

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overwhelming majority of the people of

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Bahrain and the dictatorship is being

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armed trained and financed by the

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British and American governments and

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their client satrapies in the Gulf here

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at least we look on the other side of

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the tracks the side being deliberately

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concealed behind the advertising

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Holdings and joining us for a few laps

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of the truth is S Ahmed a bahin

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democracy activist here in London side

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thanks for coming on the Sputnik must

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have been painful for you to watch them

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frolicking in Formula 1 having a whale

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of a time when you knew what was going

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on just uh few hundred meters from the

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track tell us about how that felt uh

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thank you for uh inviting on this show I

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mean in 2012 I was there in Bahrain and

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I witnessed all of that the Formula 1

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race how people in one side cheering up

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enjoying the race and at the same time

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on that weekend there was a man was shot

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by the police by the right police he was

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killed his body was found his family was

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not allowed to see him uh for for really

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few hours and then the country was in

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two size one size and the vast maj of

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the people were attending a fural of

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someone who was killed by the right

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police burying his body to the graveyard

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uh so that that was the real scene

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Formula 1 uh did uh cancel the Grand

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Prix when the revolution in bahin began

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but they have since reinstated it what's

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the feeling of the people about the

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economic benefit that the uh that the

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Grand Prix brings in several hundred

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million dollars they say well the

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reality is there is no really much

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benefit to the people I mean you

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couldn't really talk about you couldn't

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really talk about the race why there is

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instability in the country I mean

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everyone would love to see the race if

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the country is stable everyone would

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really enjoy in 2004 many people used to

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go to the Formula 1 and enjoy the race

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however to see such a Crackdown on those

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people and and and I mean you talk about

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someone who was killed during the

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weekend of that race and there is no

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justice to him

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last year his killer was acquitted uh

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and in 2013 two ladies were arrested at

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the Formula 1 circuit itself nafisa and

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ran musawi they've been charged with

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terrorist act H right now they are

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serving five years imprisonment Rana was

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talking about how she was severely

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tortured she was they basically stripped

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her clothes sexually abused her she talk

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about severe kind of torture that no one

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would really imagine where is she now

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she remains in the jail and the Formula

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One do not really care much about her

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safety or how about Justice for the

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family of Salah Abbas he lift up fif

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kids five kids and that's that's that's

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that's the reality so where is the

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business the business for the banians

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are is is the struggle where they could

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really they go every day on the street

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where they will be subject to Collective

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punishment by the right priest the

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amount of tear gas well we know what I

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to understand because bahin is so tiny

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it's perhaps uh the size of croon yeah

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with a population of 1.3 of which more

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than half a million are actually non

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Nationals yeah are workers expect yeah

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so um how do you in such a tiny Place

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have the race and so that means you have

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to have a lots of police keeping all the

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protesters away from it yeah to to keep

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the race clean make it look okay yeah I

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mean in that term bahin during the

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Formula 1 will turn up to be and declare

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martial state

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you will see checkpoints in every single

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entry and exit of of all Villages this

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dictatorship is uh as gatri said in the

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introduction tiny yeah totally

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dictatorial uh foreign was in

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established there by the British yeah uh

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and is now bringing in experts to guard

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it yeah uh from the anger of the people

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how's that going to work the royal

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family they don't they would never trust

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in the bahini people therefore they

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believe in bringing exps naturalizing

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changing the demography of the country

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which is a serious a serious concern in

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a country where its population do not

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exceed 500,000 these are the native

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people and they try to rebalance in

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order to make to tell the world that oh

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everything is stable we got XS we got I

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mean they want to make a different how

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to say it

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I mean if you talk about a country where

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the number of journalists being arrested

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are only three but considering the size

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of this country by cpj committee to

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protect uh journalist it has been rated

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the second country in the world

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arresting journalists if you talk about

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the three if in a single protest in

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bahin you will see 300,000 protesting on

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a street what does that tell you oh it

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tells you that at least three fifths of

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the people of course of bahin want rid

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of this dictatorship and yet the British

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and American governments the American

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fifth Fleet is there in bahin the

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British are supplying police Chiefs of

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course uh dubious export If Ever I saw

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one uh armaments training and so in fact

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you were laughing at the the website

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today of the the British foreign office

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say it said the first line of the report

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said that 2013 saw positive developments

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in Bahrain for human rights

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how can you start a report like that it

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went on to say and we are giving them

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assistance in weapons arms training and

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so on it's even going beyond that I mean

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in on the 27th of March Barony had uh

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just answered one of the questions at

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the parliament about the torture

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allegations in Bahrain and her reply was

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uh FCO has not received any evidence of

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torture to extract confessions to get a

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a country like bahin where the torture

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being documented on daily basis and it's

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been reported by Human Rights Watch

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amnesty Internationals you wouldn't see

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a week without a statement by those NOS

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to talk about how horrific the torture

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is I mean people begin to talk about

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details of being electrocuted I've been

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a a victim of torture in bahin myself

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and I know the reality what it means to

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be inside those C to be in I mean in

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bahin the central Pres for example Joe

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you will see F expects you will see the

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guards those which will look your cell

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which they don't speak your own language

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many of them are from Pakistan from

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various countries and it's it's it's

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that sad

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that for example who is serving two

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years and they're even they're even

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locking up doctors yeah surgeons who

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trying to help the protest yeah I mean

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there was a case of 51 doctors which

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many of them got 15 years sent for

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treating the wound yes of the victims

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and right now there is yeah and right

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now there is right now he is serving

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five years in prisonment and you talk

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about adani who is another nurse who

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lost his

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son because of the arrest in the country

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and then they take they took the feather

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and right now he is serving three years

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in prisonment what uh what torture did

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you suffer I mean I mean you could look

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at the skirt from on my on my face this

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this is due to the beatings by the

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police when they attacked the per

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roundabout on 17th of of February I mean

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it was a matter of it was about I was

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about to die on that day the the wounds

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all over my body probably this is the

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clearest sign but then because I spoke

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to seever I mean different uh news

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channels about me as a victim as and as

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a witness of what has happened on that

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on that night and then I got myself

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arrested and being sent in military

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court for for a year uh obviously the

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kind of torture imagine when you're

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being slapped in the face your ordinary

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action is to put your hand to protect

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yourself these guys were fighting your

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own instincts that if you raise your

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hand to protect your it means you will

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get more slabs fighting you with your

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own body that okay we are going to slap

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you but we don't want to see any

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reaction from you it's is the kind of

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torture where you get blindfolded most

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of the time get spat in the face a

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humilated insulted uh insult you they

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will insult your family your sex it's

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all this kind of things but what is

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mostly hurting is that when you get that

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person who is insulting you he's not

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from your country he is an exp coming to

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your own country and judging and

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questioning your loyality to the country

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I

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uh I have been talking about torture in

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bahin for more than 25 years in the

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British Parliament yeah and so for

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baroness vary yeah to now say there is

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no evidence of torture in bahin yeah

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when at least a quarter of a century ago

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and until now yeah I have been placing

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in front of the British Parliament

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evidence of electrocution of torture of

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every kind of murder kidnapping

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disappearance yeah is really frankly uh

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very difficult to Bear uh how long is it

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going to last last Fe February

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celebrated the third anniversary of the

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Revolution if you look at the size of

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the people who are still going on

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streets and fighting for the very same

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cause if you look at peaceful protesters

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or human rights activist such as nir

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rajab who is behind behind bars still

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give calls to people outside to tell

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them

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that this jail means nothing to him if

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he comes out he will be the same

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everyone knows to see those people when

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they lift the prison and being through

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this extreme torture they come out they

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come outside and they next day they will

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join the street what does that tell you

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at the same time those people are facing

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the Saudi intervention we have Saudi

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troops on our on our soil we have the

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British advisers there we have the

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Americans which again I mean looking at

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a country where its Army being

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naturalized you talk about foreign

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troops existing in the country and all

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of that and people are still fighting

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and still struggling I think with that

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Spirit you will prevail thank you very

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much indeed for joining us coming up

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after the break is the conservative

275
00:12:18,680 --> 00:12:24,600
party high flyer who'd cut a dash behind

276
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the wheel of a Ferrari himself Tor MP

277
00:12:24,600 --> 00:12:26,920
Zack

278
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Goldsmith

279
00:12:31,320 --> 00:12:36,519
welcome back to the Sputnik now all that

280
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glisters is not gold as Shakespeare told

281
00:12:36,519 --> 00:12:41,519
us but Zack Goldsmith is a diamond in

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the rough of a conservative party mered

283
00:12:41,519 --> 00:12:46,360
in one or two local difficulties with

284
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some of its MPS you'd never catch my

285
00:12:46,360 --> 00:12:51,279
next guest pretending his first home was

286
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in basing Stoke indeed I can hardly

287
00:12:51,279 --> 00:12:56,480
imagine him filling an expenses form at

288
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all he's more likely to be found with a

289
00:12:56,480 --> 00:13:01,199
stiff broom sweeping out the mess that

290
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has become West Minister with new and

291
00:13:01,199 --> 00:13:05,839
revolutionary proposals to transform

292
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Britain's stagnant duckpond over

293
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democracy where MPS are told what to say

294
00:13:08,839 --> 00:13:13,199
and what to do even if they don't

295
00:13:10,639 --> 00:13:15,279
believe it 5 years after the great

296
00:13:13,199 --> 00:13:17,440
expense Scandal they're still claiming

297
00:13:15,279 --> 00:13:19,639
off the taxpayers to keep their horses

298
00:13:17,440 --> 00:13:22,199
warm in the Stables during the cold

299
00:13:19,639 --> 00:13:24,120
winter David Cameron said this week that

300
00:13:22,199 --> 00:13:26,440
we had a court good and honest

301
00:13:24,120 --> 00:13:28,279
Parliament unquote but not many people

302
00:13:26,440 --> 00:13:30,639
see it that way in any case Zach

303
00:13:28,279 --> 00:13:33,880
Goldsmith's come up with a plan whereby

304
00:13:30,639 --> 00:13:36,320
the public can deal with erant MPS in a

305
00:13:33,880 --> 00:13:39,160
way the American citizens already can

306
00:13:36,320 --> 00:13:41,079
and do namely by exercising the right of

307
00:13:39,160 --> 00:13:43,560
recall and I'm glad to say Zach gold

308
00:13:41,079 --> 00:13:46,680
smith MP joins us now Zach you are one

309
00:13:43,560 --> 00:13:50,000
of the MPS uh that David Cameron was

310
00:13:46,680 --> 00:13:52,639
referring to both uh honest and

311
00:13:50,000 --> 00:13:55,240
hardworking uh but as I say not many

312
00:13:52,639 --> 00:13:58,560
people see it that way we've seldom been

313
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in uh lower public esteem yeah and it

314
00:13:58,560 --> 00:14:02,040
and you you can look at the data people

315
00:14:00,560 --> 00:14:04,000
pulling away from political parties you

316
00:14:02,040 --> 00:14:05,519
can look at voter turnout or you can

317
00:14:04,000 --> 00:14:07,440
just look at the anecdotal stuff turn on

318
00:14:05,519 --> 00:14:09,320
the radio listen to people on LBC or any

319
00:14:07,440 --> 00:14:11,519
other program hurling abuse at

320
00:14:09,320 --> 00:14:13,920
politicians and what shocks me and

321
00:14:11,519 --> 00:14:15,680
depresses me is that there is an

322
00:14:13,920 --> 00:14:17,800
appalling level of complacency in

323
00:14:15,680 --> 00:14:19,600
Parliament about this as if it's a phase

324
00:14:17,800 --> 00:14:21,399
and you and I know that this hasn't come

325
00:14:19,600 --> 00:14:23,160
about because of expenses all that

326
00:14:21,399 --> 00:14:25,160
happened in the expenses Scandal is that

327
00:14:23,160 --> 00:14:27,240
it authenticated a Prejudice that people

328
00:14:25,160 --> 00:14:28,839
already felt in relation to politics but

329
00:14:27,240 --> 00:14:32,639
the that feeling has been growing for

330
00:14:28,839 --> 00:14:34,399
years is the Maria Miller case uh has

331
00:14:32,639 --> 00:14:37,759
just brought everyone back to 5 years

332
00:14:34,399 --> 00:14:39,519
ago to the Daily Telegraph uh uh story

333
00:14:37,759 --> 00:14:41,720
which erupted

334
00:14:39,519 --> 00:14:44,519
volcanically uh over the British uh

335
00:14:41,720 --> 00:14:46,240
political system many parliamentarians

336
00:14:44,519 --> 00:14:48,040
thought that that Ash had uh been

337
00:14:46,240 --> 00:14:49,839
brushed away but it's all back again

338
00:14:48,040 --> 00:14:51,680
isn't it it's back again and and I think

339
00:14:49,839 --> 00:14:53,199
it'll keep on coming back because if you

340
00:14:51,680 --> 00:14:54,519
if you rely on Parliament to police

341
00:14:53,199 --> 00:14:56,040
itself you're always going to have these

342
00:14:54,519 --> 00:14:58,079
problems so you've got a choice you

343
00:14:56,040 --> 00:14:59,600
either allow Parliament to police itself

344
00:14:58,079 --> 00:15:01,639
that's discredited you create a new

345
00:14:59,600 --> 00:15:03,120
quango experts to decide whether or not

346
00:15:01,639 --> 00:15:04,519
you and I are playing by the rules I

347
00:15:03,120 --> 00:15:06,800
wouldn't trust that system I think

348
00:15:04,519 --> 00:15:08,519
particularly for independent-minded MPS

349
00:15:06,800 --> 00:15:09,639
like yourself you could say like myself

350
00:15:08,519 --> 00:15:11,639
as well I think that would be a

351
00:15:09,639 --> 00:15:13,680
dangerous or you can trust the voter

352
00:15:11,639 --> 00:15:15,800
those are the three choices and and

353
00:15:13,680 --> 00:15:17,959
unfortunately there is a sense a sense

354
00:15:15,800 --> 00:15:19,759
of Terror when it comes to any Prospect

355
00:15:17,959 --> 00:15:22,040
of actually empowering voters there's a

356
00:15:19,759 --> 00:15:23,320
fear of democracy there ironic given

357
00:15:22,040 --> 00:15:26,880
that we're all there for Democratic

358
00:15:23,320 --> 00:15:29,600
reasons indeed the voter uh is the only

359
00:15:26,880 --> 00:15:32,000
one that can be trusted in this picture

360
00:15:29,600 --> 00:15:34,959
I've been before the uh double standards

361
00:15:32,000 --> 00:15:37,519
and privileges uh committee uh staffed

362
00:15:34,959 --> 00:15:43,360
by some of the same people who cleared

363
00:15:37,519 --> 00:15:46,000
uh uh Miss Miller uh and they ried uh

364
00:15:43,360 --> 00:15:49,440
absolutely partial and politicized uh

365
00:15:46,000 --> 00:15:52,560
Injustice against me uh and so I know

366
00:15:49,440 --> 00:15:54,440
that I wouldn't put uh my trust in them

367
00:15:52,560 --> 00:15:58,240
uh you would put your trust in the in

368
00:15:54,440 --> 00:16:00,759
your voters what democra this this is

369
00:15:58,240 --> 00:16:02,079
this is an idea whose Time Has Come

370
00:16:00,759 --> 00:16:04,279
you've been pioneering it it's not you

371
00:16:02,079 --> 00:16:06,480
didn't invent it already exists in

372
00:16:04,279 --> 00:16:08,800
America but you've been pioneering it

373
00:16:06,480 --> 00:16:10,600
here and I really think this is a moment

374
00:16:08,800 --> 00:16:12,440
for you it is a really simple thing and

375
00:16:10,600 --> 00:16:14,079
by the way it was promised by all three

376
00:16:12,440 --> 00:16:15,759
mainstream parties in the heat of the

377
00:16:14,079 --> 00:16:17,279
last expensive Scandal they said okay

378
00:16:15,759 --> 00:16:19,680
the solution is we'll bring in a recall

379
00:16:17,279 --> 00:16:22,319
system after the election that appetite

380
00:16:19,680 --> 00:16:23,600
for reform evaporated and eventually

381
00:16:22,319 --> 00:16:24,720
there was a sense that they had to come

382
00:16:23,600 --> 00:16:25,959
up with something otherwise it would

383
00:16:24,720 --> 00:16:27,440
look like a promise broken and they

384
00:16:25,959 --> 00:16:29,440
developed something called a it was a

385
00:16:27,440 --> 00:16:30,880
draft recall bill I don't know whether

386
00:16:29,440 --> 00:16:32,600
you've read that bill I have read that

387
00:16:30,880 --> 00:16:34,759
bill it is the opposite of recall

388
00:16:32,600 --> 00:16:36,160
instead of empowering voters it empowers

389
00:16:34,759 --> 00:16:37,600
the same parliamentary committee that

390
00:16:36,160 --> 00:16:39,120
ruled on you the same parliamentary

391
00:16:37,600 --> 00:16:41,120
committee that was discredited in recent

392
00:16:39,120 --> 00:16:43,319
days over Maria Miller and they decide

393
00:16:41,120 --> 00:16:44,880
whether or not an MP qualifies to recall

394
00:16:43,319 --> 00:16:47,120
and once they've made that decision an

395
00:16:44,880 --> 00:16:49,920
MP is toast you can't survive the the

396
00:16:47,120 --> 00:16:51,800
next few steps you're finished as far as

397
00:16:49,920 --> 00:16:53,720
I'm concerned recall is a pure and

398
00:16:51,800 --> 00:16:55,160
simple Democratic thing you allow people

399
00:16:53,720 --> 00:16:57,079
if enough of them agree if enough of

400
00:16:55,160 --> 00:16:59,040
them sign a petition they earn the right

401
00:16:57,079 --> 00:17:01,199
to have a referendum do they want George

402
00:16:59,040 --> 00:17:03,000
way to stay or go and if the majority

403
00:17:01,199 --> 00:17:05,799
want you to go you go and there's a by

404
00:17:03,000 --> 00:17:08,640
elction it's pure unarguable democracy

405
00:17:05,799 --> 00:17:10,839
it's perfectly possible to consult the

406
00:17:08,640 --> 00:17:13,079
people you wouldn't even have to have uh

407
00:17:10,839 --> 00:17:15,160
ballot boxes on a wet Thursday in every

408
00:17:13,079 --> 00:17:18,000
school as to whether Zach Goldsmith

409
00:17:15,160 --> 00:17:20,640
should stay or go it could be done by

410
00:17:18,000 --> 00:17:22,679
electronic means and very quickly

411
00:17:20,640 --> 00:17:24,240
quickly and cheaply and and the key is

412
00:17:22,679 --> 00:17:25,559
that there should be no criteria I mean

413
00:17:24,240 --> 00:17:27,120
I've had this argument many had

414
00:17:25,559 --> 00:17:29,200
arguments earlier today with politicians

415
00:17:27,120 --> 00:17:30,880
and there it it all comes back to a sort

416
00:17:29,200 --> 00:17:32,400
of fear of democracy what about if you

417
00:17:30,880 --> 00:17:33,960
take an unpopular View and you're thrown

418
00:17:32,400 --> 00:17:35,600
out well my answer to that is it's

419
00:17:33,960 --> 00:17:38,559
democracy you know what about if people

420
00:17:35,600 --> 00:17:40,400
had you know been recalled over the Iraq

421
00:17:38,559 --> 00:17:43,200
War great we wouldn't have had the Iraq

422
00:17:40,400 --> 00:17:45,400
War it it's um every single argument

423
00:17:43,200 --> 00:17:47,000
against recall comes back to that same

424
00:17:45,400 --> 00:17:48,760
basic fear of democracy and if you look

425
00:17:47,000 --> 00:17:50,559
around the world where Reco exists there

426
00:17:48,760 --> 00:17:53,080
is not a single example anyone has been

427
00:17:50,559 --> 00:17:54,919
able to give me not one of a successful

428
00:17:53,080 --> 00:17:58,159
vexatious campaign so there have been

429
00:17:54,919 --> 00:18:00,200
recalls but none which widely accepted

430
00:17:58,159 --> 00:18:01,840
as having been unfair you can trust

431
00:18:00,200 --> 00:18:03,440
voters they can they're capable of

432
00:18:01,840 --> 00:18:05,600
making a good judgment by the way I had

433
00:18:03,440 --> 00:18:07,679
an argument yeser an argument a month

434
00:18:05,600 --> 00:18:09,440
ago with an MP it was the only debate

435
00:18:07,679 --> 00:18:10,720
I've had with an MP against recall no

436
00:18:09,440 --> 00:18:13,320
one else admits that they don't approve

437
00:18:10,720 --> 00:18:15,000
of recall and he on principle opposed

438
00:18:13,320 --> 00:18:16,400
recall he said it's a representative

439
00:18:15,000 --> 00:18:18,200
democracy you sent us there you let us

440
00:18:16,400 --> 00:18:19,760
do our job he's changed his view now

441
00:18:18,200 --> 00:18:22,039
because he became embroiled in a

442
00:18:19,760 --> 00:18:23,760
controversy and he realized that you

443
00:18:22,039 --> 00:18:25,679
cannot trust the social media you can't

444
00:18:23,760 --> 00:18:27,559
TR trust the mainstream media you can't

445
00:18:25,679 --> 00:18:29,880
trust the newspapers you can trust

446
00:18:27,559 --> 00:18:31,320
constituents he got a fair ing at home

447
00:18:29,880 --> 00:18:33,600
he was Vindicated in the end he was

448
00:18:31,320 --> 00:18:35,200
cleared of all charges he was innocent

449
00:18:33,600 --> 00:18:36,919
and his constituents knew that long

450
00:18:35,200 --> 00:18:38,799
before the newspapers backed off his

451
00:18:36,919 --> 00:18:40,760
view on recall has completely changed

452
00:18:38,799 --> 00:18:41,720
because ultimately if you can't trust

453
00:18:40,760 --> 00:18:43,520
your

454
00:18:41,720 --> 00:18:45,400
constituents let's not bother with any

455
00:18:43,520 --> 00:18:47,240
elections let's do away with democracy

456
00:18:45,400 --> 00:18:49,400
just to play The Devil's Advocate a bit

457
00:18:47,240 --> 00:18:51,760
when you say there's no requirement does

458
00:18:49,400 --> 00:18:54,640
it mean you the public the the

459
00:18:51,760 --> 00:18:56,919
constituents can any time without any

460
00:18:54,640 --> 00:18:59,000
reason just Callum this you you would

461
00:18:56,919 --> 00:19:01,120
need to have a relatively high threshold

462
00:18:59,000 --> 00:19:02,200
um otherwise you get party Shenanigans

463
00:19:01,120 --> 00:19:03,760
so you don't want to make it possible

464
00:19:02,200 --> 00:19:06,039
for the opposition party to just

465
00:19:03,760 --> 00:19:07,760
endlessly trigger re referendums but if

466
00:19:06,039 --> 00:19:10,159
you have a sort of 20% that's about

467
00:19:07,760 --> 00:19:11,559
average around the world 20% is a lot in

468
00:19:10,159 --> 00:19:13,600
in your in my case it would mean about

469
00:19:11,559 --> 00:19:15,120
14,000 people signing a petition saying

470
00:19:13,600 --> 00:19:16,640
we want an opportunity to vote on

471
00:19:15,120 --> 00:19:18,679
whether or not to get rid of that now

472
00:19:16,640 --> 00:19:20,720
14,000 people signed that petition I

473
00:19:18,679 --> 00:19:22,360
would not be able to dismiss that as a

474
00:19:20,720 --> 00:19:23,720
the game of my oppos of the opposition

475
00:19:22,360 --> 00:19:25,480
party in my area I wouldn't be able to

476
00:19:23,720 --> 00:19:27,559
put it down to the you know the unions

477
00:19:25,480 --> 00:19:29,000
or the some campaign group I'd have to

478
00:19:27,559 --> 00:19:30,919
accept that there was a serious problem

479
00:19:29,000 --> 00:19:32,679
and I'd want the opportunity then to to

480
00:19:30,919 --> 00:19:34,320
to ensure that I had a clean and proper

481
00:19:32,679 --> 00:19:37,080
mandate because you could then stand in

482
00:19:34,320 --> 00:19:39,240
the subsequent B you stand again you

483
00:19:37,080 --> 00:19:40,679
could be Vindicated that way and ideally

484
00:19:39,240 --> 00:19:42,440
you would simply win the referendum

485
00:19:40,679 --> 00:19:43,919
because once you get to 20% you then

486
00:19:42,440 --> 00:19:45,919
have a referendum and it's a simple

487
00:19:43,919 --> 00:19:47,400
thing do you want him to stay or go and

488
00:19:45,919 --> 00:19:48,480
if more than half in a byelection said

489
00:19:47,400 --> 00:19:49,880
they wanted me to go I think I'd

490
00:19:48,480 --> 00:19:51,919
probably accept that I was in the wrong

491
00:19:49,880 --> 00:19:53,400
job and I'd go but but but you're right

492
00:19:51,919 --> 00:19:55,000
you would have the opportunity to stand

493
00:19:53,400 --> 00:19:56,600
again if you felt that that there was an

494
00:19:55,000 --> 00:19:58,919
opportunity for you and of course it

495
00:19:56,600 --> 00:20:02,000
wouldn't mean that uh that one was wrong

496
00:19:58,919 --> 00:20:04,159
even if one lost if one was forced into

497
00:20:02,000 --> 00:20:05,919
a referendum because one took a stand on

498
00:20:04,159 --> 00:20:08,000
this issue or that issue people didn't

499
00:20:05,919 --> 00:20:10,240
like it but you really believed it if

500
00:20:08,000 --> 00:20:12,360
you lost there would be no shame in

501
00:20:10,240 --> 00:20:14,600
losing and later you would be Vindicated

502
00:20:12,360 --> 00:20:16,799
Charles James Fox the greatest of all

503
00:20:14,600 --> 00:20:19,120
the British parliamentarians was Thrice

504
00:20:16,799 --> 00:20:21,480
expelled from the British Parliament but

505
00:20:19,120 --> 00:20:24,720
carried back by the people and

506
00:20:21,480 --> 00:20:26,679
remembered in a golden light in uh

507
00:20:24,720 --> 00:20:28,760
history when those who expelled him are

508
00:20:26,679 --> 00:20:31,400
long forgotten that's the thing if you

509
00:20:28,760 --> 00:20:33,200
are if you are challenged on principle

510
00:20:31,400 --> 00:20:35,240
people respect you for that and I think

511
00:20:33,200 --> 00:20:37,200
in any case it's very rare that an MP

512
00:20:35,240 --> 00:20:39,080
would that would lose the confidence of

513
00:20:37,200 --> 00:20:41,000
his or her constituents on an issue of

514
00:20:39,080 --> 00:20:42,679
principle I think you you might lose the

515
00:20:41,000 --> 00:20:44,480
arguments but people at least respect

516
00:20:42,679 --> 00:20:46,480
you for being honest and and declaring

517
00:20:44,480 --> 00:20:48,520
your view in a clear and and and and and

518
00:20:46,480 --> 00:20:49,919
direct manner where people will fall

519
00:20:48,520 --> 00:20:51,039
foul of this with recall is if they

520
00:20:49,919 --> 00:20:52,520
behave badly if they don't bother

521
00:20:51,039 --> 00:20:54,480
turning up to Parliament you know the

522
00:20:52,520 --> 00:20:56,120
rules at the moment allow you or I we

523
00:20:54,480 --> 00:20:57,960
could go on holiday now until the next

524
00:20:56,120 --> 00:20:59,480
election we could go hang out together

525
00:20:57,960 --> 00:21:01,000
in Barbados on a beach for a year we

526
00:20:59,480 --> 00:21:02,240
wouldn't have broken a single rule we

527
00:21:01,000 --> 00:21:03,880
could not go to Parliament We could

528
00:21:02,240 --> 00:21:05,400
decide to boycott our constituents

529
00:21:03,880 --> 00:21:06,840
refuse to engage with them we could

530
00:21:05,400 --> 00:21:09,559
switch parties we could do any of these

531
00:21:06,840 --> 00:21:11,240
things without any opportunity of for

532
00:21:09,559 --> 00:21:13,960
our constituents to challenge that it's

533
00:21:11,240 --> 00:21:15,400
an it's an absurd situation we call

534
00:21:13,960 --> 00:21:17,000
would keep people on their toes at all

535
00:21:15,400 --> 00:21:18,480
times and there's a really fundamental

536
00:21:17,000 --> 00:21:20,919
reason why I think that's important as

537
00:21:18,480 --> 00:21:22,720
you know we have a situation now where

538
00:21:20,919 --> 00:21:24,679
Parliament is not doing its job it's not

539
00:21:22,720 --> 00:21:26,080
holding government to account most MPS

540
00:21:24,679 --> 00:21:27,799
when they vote they don't even know what

541
00:21:26,080 --> 00:21:29,120
they're voting on there have been times

542
00:21:27,799 --> 00:21:30,919
when I haven't followed the debate I've

543
00:21:29,120 --> 00:21:32,279
rushed to the door I've asked the whips

544
00:21:30,919 --> 00:21:33,360
what is what's the issue what's this

545
00:21:32,279 --> 00:21:35,080
amendment and they haven't been able to

546
00:21:33,360 --> 00:21:36,640
tell me I've hovered and asked other MPS

547
00:21:35,080 --> 00:21:38,000
what is this amendment and the most

548
00:21:36,640 --> 00:21:40,000
they'll do is say this way that's the

549
00:21:38,000 --> 00:21:42,200
way that's way you should go and I have

550
00:21:40,000 --> 00:21:43,440
abstained on votes for that reason but I

551
00:21:42,200 --> 00:21:45,559
can tell you that if you were to stand

552
00:21:43,440 --> 00:21:47,799
in central Lobby and ask the first 20

553
00:21:45,559 --> 00:21:50,039
MPS to emerge from a vote on a technical

554
00:21:47,799 --> 00:21:52,000
Amendment what have you just voted on

555
00:21:50,039 --> 00:21:53,200
almost all of them will simply shrug

556
00:21:52,000 --> 00:21:54,559
their shoulders and for me that's a

557
00:21:53,200 --> 00:21:56,679
bigger Scandal than the expensive

558
00:21:54,559 --> 00:21:58,720
Scandal it is much bigger we have a

559
00:21:56,679 --> 00:22:00,960
parliament of as I described at one

560
00:21:58,720 --> 00:22:03,640
poodles with pagers they don't have

561
00:22:00,960 --> 00:22:06,240
pagers anymore they don't need them uh

562
00:22:03,640 --> 00:22:08,840
they bark when they're told to bark bite

563
00:22:06,240 --> 00:22:12,440
when they're told to bite they are

564
00:22:08,840 --> 00:22:15,720
Pavlov's very dogs uh and that's the

565
00:22:12,440 --> 00:22:18,720
real crisis uh of British parliamentary

566
00:22:15,720 --> 00:22:21,080
democracy that Tweedle D Tweedle Dum two

567
00:22:18,720 --> 00:22:23,320
cheeks of the same backside or three

568
00:22:21,080 --> 00:22:25,919
cheeks if you throw in the liberal

569
00:22:23,320 --> 00:22:29,320
Democrats people who believe in things

570
00:22:25,919 --> 00:22:32,559
like you do and like I do are very rare

571
00:22:29,320 --> 00:22:35,000
birds were're called loners and uh and

572
00:22:32,559 --> 00:22:38,000
we're not Mavericks we're not uh we're

573
00:22:35,000 --> 00:22:40,559
not team players but I never saw

574
00:22:38,000 --> 00:22:43,640
Politics as some kind of team game where

575
00:22:40,559 --> 00:22:45,799
the MPS are the crowd cheering on their

576
00:22:43,640 --> 00:22:47,400
uh their team agree I mean our job

577
00:22:45,799 --> 00:22:49,360
there's no job description for an MP but

578
00:22:47,400 --> 00:22:51,080
if there was it would simply say hold

579
00:22:49,360 --> 00:22:53,120
government to account on behalf of your

580
00:22:51,080 --> 00:22:54,880
constituents you can't do that if you

581
00:22:53,120 --> 00:22:56,480
have a voluntary labotomy the moment you

582
00:22:54,880 --> 00:22:57,880
enter Parliament if you're going to do

583
00:22:56,480 --> 00:22:59,720
everything you're told if your vote can

584
00:22:57,880 --> 00:23:01,960
be taken for granted by your party at

585
00:22:59,720 --> 00:23:03,200
any given moment that you you cannot

586
00:23:01,960 --> 00:23:05,159
hold the government to account they'll

587
00:23:03,200 --> 00:23:07,039
take your vote for granted you become

588
00:23:05,159 --> 00:23:08,520
what they refer to as Lobby fod if

589
00:23:07,039 --> 00:23:10,039
you're not willing to use that one tool

590
00:23:08,520 --> 00:23:11,600
the only thing you and I have that other

591
00:23:10,039 --> 00:23:13,720
people watching this program don't have

592
00:23:11,600 --> 00:23:15,039
is the ability to vote in Parliament and

593
00:23:13,720 --> 00:23:16,559
if you're not willing to use that vote

594
00:23:15,039 --> 00:23:19,159
strategically you might as well be

595
00:23:16,559 --> 00:23:22,039
replaced by a laptop computer yeah so

596
00:23:19,159 --> 00:23:24,960
what can we do Zach uh are you going to

597
00:23:22,039 --> 00:23:27,440
introduce this bill of yours for genuine

598
00:23:24,960 --> 00:23:28,760
recall it the bill es and flows there

599
00:23:27,440 --> 00:23:29,919
are times I think I'm going to win of

600
00:23:28,760 --> 00:23:31,960
times I think I'm going to lose I think

601
00:23:29,919 --> 00:23:33,640
the Maria Miller case there's a silver

602
00:23:31,960 --> 00:23:35,400
lining turn I think it's put this issue

603
00:23:33,640 --> 00:23:36,919
right back on the agenda I think that

604
00:23:35,400 --> 00:23:38,400
now there's an acceptance by the Prime

605
00:23:36,919 --> 00:23:39,799
Minister and even nickle that the

606
00:23:38,400 --> 00:23:41,279
standards committee has been completely

607
00:23:39,799 --> 00:23:43,440
discredited you can't have that

608
00:23:41,279 --> 00:23:44,760
middleman body to decide whether or not

609
00:23:43,440 --> 00:23:46,159
the voters have the right to hold their

610
00:23:44,760 --> 00:23:48,120
MP to account I think that's now

611
00:23:46,159 --> 00:23:50,600
accepted what I hope we don't get is

612
00:23:48,120 --> 00:23:51,760
some absurd uh recall that says you can

613
00:23:50,600 --> 00:23:53,360
only be recalled if you've got a

614
00:23:51,760 --> 00:23:54,960
custodial sentence if you go to jail

615
00:23:53,360 --> 00:23:56,760
it's got to be down to the discretion of

616
00:23:54,960 --> 00:23:58,559
the voter that's my campaign now I think

617
00:23:56,760 --> 00:24:00,640
we' got a window of about a month to win

618
00:23:58,559 --> 00:24:02,760
that win those arguments and your help

619
00:24:00,640 --> 00:24:05,240
with that is already invaluable let me

620
00:24:02,760 --> 00:24:07,120
know if I can help you well uh if the

621
00:24:05,240 --> 00:24:08,799
double standards and privileges

622
00:24:07,120 --> 00:24:13,000
committee goes down at least its

623
00:24:08,799 --> 00:24:13,000
chairman got a Knighthood out of

624
00:24:14,279 --> 00:24:19,360
it well as Zach said the Maria Miller

625
00:24:17,480 --> 00:24:22,120
case has definitely been a cloud over

626
00:24:19,360 --> 00:24:24,799
the parliament this last few days but it

627
00:24:22,120 --> 00:24:27,720
does have a silver lining it does return

628
00:24:24,799 --> 00:24:29,799
this whole issue center stage and as

629
00:24:27,720 --> 00:24:32,919
Zach said we ought to listen to the

630
00:24:29,799 --> 00:24:36,000
people gy red gloves and all and red

631
00:24:32,919 --> 00:24:37,919
shoes was out there doing just that yeah

632
00:24:36,000 --> 00:24:40,600
I think she's right to resign she can't

633
00:24:37,919 --> 00:24:43,039
continue to you know the normal everyday

634
00:24:40,600 --> 00:24:44,960
person can't get away with that kind of

635
00:24:43,039 --> 00:24:46,279
thing so why should she and she's done

636
00:24:44,960 --> 00:24:47,840
the right thing she's stepping down the

637
00:24:46,279 --> 00:24:49,799
public uproar is not going to cease

638
00:24:47,840 --> 00:24:51,320
until she does so yeah I think she's

639
00:24:49,799 --> 00:24:52,880
done the right thing they get paid

640
00:24:51,320 --> 00:24:54,760
enough really so why should they be

641
00:24:52,880 --> 00:24:55,919
claiming expenses well yeah she should

642
00:24:54,760 --> 00:24:57,919
have resigned earlier because her

643
00:24:55,919 --> 00:24:59,399
apology was so bad and I kind of um you

644
00:24:57,919 --> 00:25:01,120
know makes David Cameron look like a bit

645
00:24:59,399 --> 00:25:02,399
of an idiot because he is supporting

646
00:25:01,120 --> 00:25:04,320
someone who the rest of his party isn't

647
00:25:02,399 --> 00:25:05,919
supporting yeah of course it's wrong um

648
00:25:04,320 --> 00:25:07,559
you know if I fiddle my expenses I'd

649
00:25:05,919 --> 00:25:09,840
lose my job if it was anyone else in

650
00:25:07,559 --> 00:25:12,600
normal circumstances they would be

651
00:25:09,840 --> 00:25:16,799
punished for it I'm a true blue I will

652
00:25:12,600 --> 00:25:20,000
not be voting blue conservative in the

653
00:25:16,799 --> 00:25:23,559
European or next year Li them or you

654
00:25:20,000 --> 00:25:24,919
them no uh lib them no even worse the

655
00:25:23,559 --> 00:25:27,399
whole three I don't trust anybody

656
00:25:24,919 --> 00:25:29,440
anymore unfortunately that's all we've

657
00:25:27,399 --> 00:25:32,559
got time for keep in touch with us

658
00:25:29,440 --> 00:25:34,880
though on Twitter at rtor Sputnik and on

659
00:25:32,559 --> 00:25:37,440
Facebook you can like us on Sputnik on

660
00:25:34,880 --> 00:25:41,520
Russia today it's goodbye from me gatri

661
00:25:37,440 --> 00:25:41,520
and from me George Galloway it's been

662
00:25:54,159 --> 00:25:57,159
marvelous